Beiträge von sprucegoose

    Yet more...


    Zitat von TallTony

    got my car diagnosis today on my ABS pump. My tech guy is sure that the pump has failed. As you know the system self tests each time it is started, and it is this self test that decides whether there is a fault in the system. The pump is not 'on' all the time, and is only called into use when the ABS system detects that anti-blocking is required. If the the pump fails to fire up on the self test, then the fault is registered, and the lights come on, and the system is tripped out - no ABS, no ASC.


    Tony, following our meeting, I thought some more about the cause of your problem and decided to test out my theory about it the motor/wiring on my own car. I replaced K94 with the old one and placed a piece of plastic between the contacts so that pin socket 87 was permanently isolated from the pump. This mimics the open-circuit (infinite resistance) that we observed on your car between the pump relay and the earth. It proved to be an enlightening experiment and we now have yet another piece of the jigsaw as to how it all hangs together.


    On start-up, there was no fault - ergo, the pump is not tested initially. Then I drove a few yards and as the speed hit 5mph, bingo! there were the lights. This shows that the relay is "pinged" briefly when you move off, closing the contacts and providing brief power to pin 3 of the hydro-unit. This is the point at which the ECU senses the open-circuit.


    When I replaced the "good" relay, the fault initially refused to go away when I started the car. However, when I drove it above 5mph again, the lights went off. Pretty convincing. If you can rig up an additional wire from pin 87 with the good relay in position, run this to pin 3 of the replacement hydro-unit and earth the casing, I reckon that when you drive a few yards, your fault will disappear. You'll then know for sure that you only have the one remaining problem with the motor. Hope this helps.


    John

    Re: Who knows, maybe this is it...


    Zitat von sprucegoose

    TT, you know, I really do think this will work......


    Tony, you don't need to be a guinea pig - I tried it out this morning and it works just perfectly - the amazing thing is, this is free! I've made up some wires which will enable me to test all your sensors in the time it takes to lift each wheel off the ground and give it a gentle turn. Because I didn't want to lift the carpet and disturb my ECU wiring again, I decided to remove the FNS wheel instead and to connect the laptop directly to the sensor plug. Also, I'd never seen the sensors and how they're wired etc, so this way it killed 2 birds with one stone. Before Sunday, I suggest you remove the trims and the ECU in preparation, so we can quickly plug-and-go through the ECU connector. I know you've got the 88-pin ECU, and I am assuming that you have ABS/ASC+T and Bosch System 5. If not, we'll need the correct wiring diagram for the connector to locate the 8 sensor wires....


    Having had the ECU out previously, and now having experienced today what a faff it is to get at the individual wiring for a single sensor, its a no-brainer for me: Testing through the ECU connector is not only quicker and cleaner, it also ensures that the test is as complete as possible because any break or dry joint in the wiring is automatically exposed as well. Oh, not to forget, that way you don't have to take the wheel off and half the plastic wheel-arch lining!


    Once I'd exposed the connector, cleaned off the mud and leaves etc, I first re-tested the resistance to find a satisfying 1080 ohms. Previously this wheel sensor showed 1098 ohms from the ECU connector, so some loss in the wiring then, but close enough for government work. At http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf20136.htm it quotes front sensors for Bosch 5.3 ABS (on a Corvette) at between 990 and 1210 ohms - figures which tally with those I found elsewhere. So far so good.


    I then attached the DVOM, set it to 20V AC and spun the disc, registering voltages of about 0.05V up to about 1.4V when I turned it quite quickly. This was good news as I could now attach the PC without worrying about blowing up the sound card. And so to the final stage of the experiment...


    Guessing a frequency of about 20 Hz coming off the sensor, I set the time axis to show 100 msec and the amplitude to max gain (protect that sound-card!) and gently turned the wheel - immediately a sine wave appeared! After experimenting with a few settings, I found that a time axis of 500 to 600 msec was good, with the gain knob set to around 0.3 for a decent shaped wave-form. Other settings were Ch2 off, Sync off, trigger set to Auto/Ch 1, threshold 0.01. I wasn't surpised to see that this wheel created a uniform, un-broken wave, as my ABS is working properly.


    You'll see the wiring on Sunday. For anyone else interested in reproducing this piece of test-kit, I used a 3.5mm stereo co-ax adapter into the microphone socket, one with 2 audio jack sockets on the back. Then a single jack plug from channel 1 (white by convention) spliced to appropriate adaptors for either the ECU connector sockets, or the 3-pin sensor connector in the wheel-arch. PC is bog-standard Compaq Presario, 512MB Ram, 1.4GHz AMD processor, Windows XP Home Edition.


    Total cost of what I did today: 2 bits of wire and a few connectors.... :D

    Who knows, maybe this is it...


    TT, you know, I really do think this will work. I have some more tests to do in order to explore the limitations, and also I have to make up some wires up so it can be used as an instant "plug in". In the meantime I'd really like to hear from arnie (you sound like you understands this stuff), or anyone else who can confirm the following assumptions:


    1) We are looking for a single-phase AC voltage being generated on the 2 wires connected to each sensor when the wheel is spun.


    2) The voltage will range from a few mV (say around 50mV at low speed), to not more than 1000mV peak-to-peak at high RPM. Any higher and the mic socket method is at risk without some form of in-line resistor.


    3) How many teeth are on each sensor and what frequency range would we expect to see?


    SG


    PS: TT no probs with the pump. All cleaned up ready to go on.

    Free Oscilloscope


    http://zeitnitz.de/Christian/Scope/Scope_en.html


    This thread is now fine-tuning on how to check wheel sensors, and following shiggsy's comments about PC-based 'scopes, I just downloaded this amazing freeware (link above). It actually does what it says on the tin, all the way down to 10 Hz and with absolutely miniscule voltages. I connected various gizmos to the mic socket of my laptop and there was the appropriate wave form coming up on screen exactly as you'd expect. Who'd have thought a simple sound card might be the way to test a wheel sensor ? Anyone fancy being the guinea-pig?
    SG

    Tony
    I think its on page 3450.5-09 of that Electrical Troubleshooting manual linked in the ABS/ASC thread. It appears to be wired like this:
    Pin 5 +ve supply
    Pin 6 +ve switched output
    Pin 2 +ve feed to the bulb
    Pin 4 earth for the bulb
    Cheers.
    J

    Zitat von sandwich

    I have a firend that has a company called Classic Additions who assures me they are superb!


    Sandwich, I'll let you know if they are or not in a few weeks. I just ordered a custom-made light-weight cover for £170, unfortunately the lead time just now is 5 weeks due to demand...


    SG


    MB, your car looks pretty much the same as mine: a May 1997-build 840Ci Sport with M62-B44 engine. So, the part number should be the same: 64 54 1 392 913. The site I'm using for parts now is:
    http://bmwfans.info/original/ which looks to have the same software as the PC on the counter at the local $tealer. I like the fact that you just type in the VIN and up comes your vehicle with very clear diagrams.


    As for my problem, I returned the car to the supplying specialist and it turned out that the hub had come loose on the shaft so they were able to repair it - and its still good 4 months later. The chap who did the work said, "it just needed the clip (or maybe clips?) re-fitting". Hopefully that might save you a few hundred....


    That fan, coupled with the air scoop in front of it is such a stupid design. I have to negotiate a 300m long concrete drive with a grass strip down the middle. At this time of year the car is like a hungry vacuum cleaner, boy does it suck up those leaves! :mrgreen:

    I want one of these!


    Zitat von shiggsy

    Best ones I think are PicoScope (http://www.picoscope.co.uk) but these will cost more than £100.


    This would definitely be the one for me... just that the price is astronomical. I followed your link and saw that they quote 20mV as the lowest signal, up to 50V. This is a link to an example screen shot of an ABS sensor on a Vauxhall...


    http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/abs_generic.html


    Is there something as good as this at a more reasonable price, I wonder?

    Interesting stuff


    Arnie, thanks for all the info. I had seen the Fluke DVOM's earlier but didn't notice they did oscilloscopes. Still a bit pricy for me though, I just checked ebay and the buy-it-now price for a 120 kit was $1,250. What do you think about the Waekon thingy as a fairly cheap solution for troube-shooting the sensors?

    Re: Things to check easily.


    Zitat von sprucegoose

    The next stage is then to compare the relatively small electrical signal coming from a sensor when each wheel is turning....


    So a "coarse" means of testing each sensor would be to see if there is any AC voltage at all (he estimated a max of 2 to 3 volts at high speed) when the wheel is spun. Alternatively, if your multi-meter is an automotive type and has a timing feature, set it to this to show an actual digital count coming from each wheel and compare these.....


    I have just been poking around the web to find out more relevant information about how to test wheel sensors in situ. Hall-effect sensors, as they are known (edited to say that they are actually NOT Hall-effect sensors, just common-or-garden magneto-inductive sensors, thanks arnie), do indeed produce an AC current, and the range of voltages received at the ECU will be from upwards of 50mV when a wheel is spinning at 1 rev/sec ( say 5 mph on the 8 ), to a few volts at high speed. A few owners on the sites I visited (Volvo, Corvette, Saab, Audi) saw this as a decent-enough test - "just do it on each wheel and the bad one will stand out" was one comment.


    Re my previous post, if you want to see a digital read-out of each wheel speed, even a hi-spec DVOM like the Gunson G4187 won't help because, in timing mode, the trigger voltage is way too high at 10V. It appears that the only way you can do this, then, is with an oscilloscope! (see later posts on how to get and apply one of these for free --->) There is a more scientific solution if you want to go beyond just checking the voltage and one such product is called the Waekon 20480 Wheel Speed Sensor Tester:
    http://www.waekon.com/PS/catalog/ba07.html


    Their tech support is on 1-800-367-9235. A nice guy there called Dave confirmed that you can either plug it in to the ECU connector, or go directly to each wheel. All you do is hook it up, spin the wheel and watch the LEDs light up to indicate any faults. It'll pick up low signals, dodgy connections, broken teeth, gummed up or bad air gaps etc. Its available on Amazon for $169, say £85. I'm not in the market today, but I shall certainly file this away for future use.


    Happy hunting.

    Things to check easily.


    The following comments apply to cars fitted with Bosch System 5, or what BMW calls ABS/ASC+T. If you have this, your ECU (Bosch 0 265 109 022, BMW 34 52 1 164 133) has the 88-pin connector and the wiring diagrams can be found in the Electrical Troubleshooting Guide, from pages 3450.5b through 3450.5-12. Download it from here http://wuffer.net/MyFiles/ETM95.pdf (this guide covers all models, including the 850)


    Firstly, I agree with Alant that the voltage supply to the ECU should be checked. Do this across the connector sockets to pin no 1 (+ve supply) and each of pins 28, 29 and 55, which should all be fully earthed.


    I also concur with Arnie about checking the wheel sensors early on, but do note the critical speed of 5 mph. If your lights consistently extinguish after you turn the key, but then come on after a few metres of driving, I'd say that is pointing to the sensors. (You still can't be sure, though, because if, like me you have a corroded ECU, the vibration of moving off could break a contact or change a resistance internally... also, see my later posts which describe how a pump fault is also detected at 5mph) If still suspecting the sensors, I'd first check the resistances of each wheel sensor - Pins 10 and 36 connect to the Left Front (LF); 12 & 13 to LR; 14 & 15 to RF; 38 & 11 to RR. The resistances I obtained were 1.098, 1.093, 1.095 and 1.091 K ohms respectively, i.e. pretty consistent (note, later I discovered tolerances are 990 to 1210 ohms). The next stage is then to compare the relatively small electrical signals coming from each sensor when the wheel is turning. I didn't need to do this because I didn't have the 'moving off' symptom, but in practice if I was looking for a faulty sensor, I now realise that this would be a quicker and more assured way to identify the offending wheel. A lot cleaner, too! I have just spoken (4.50pm Tuesday) to a colleague of Kevin at Bosch to get more details on how the sensors interact with the ECU and what you should be looking for. Apparently, the sensor creates an analogue AC current, which is of sufficient voltage for the ECU to begin registering sine-wave peaks when the wheels spin at about 8 kph - so there's confirmation of the 5 mph figure quoted above! What the ECU then does is to record the time between successive amplitude peaks and from this it calculates a rotation speed for each wheel (edited to add that it also checks the pump elcetrical circuit at this point). So a "coarse" means of testing each sensor would be to see if there is any AC voltage at all (he estimated a max of 2 to 3 volts at high speed) when the wheel is spun. Alternatively, if your multi-meter is an automotive type and has a timing feature, set it to this to show an actual digital count coming from each wheel and compare these. (Wrong! See next post for details of how to perform a proper oscilloscope check using nothing more than a PC and a few bits of wire)


    Alternatively, if your lights come on when you turn on the ignition and then stay on, even before you have started the engine, its less likely to be the sensors, and you'll need to look elsewhere. In reality, there are only a few more places it can be. At this stage, I would certainly get a diagnostic check, either at a $tealer or, better still (price-wise), a specialist with the right kit. When the ECU first receives power, it performs a short self-test and also checks the electrical signals from various other components, clicks K95 twice presumably to check the valves and then energise them, and then fires up the throttle control motor for one cycle. Any faults it finds will produce a diagnostic code which gives a "clue" as to where the problem lies, but this is still only a guide. Note, the pump motor is not checked until 5mph is achieved. My car consistently reported fault No. 34 (ASC Cross-over Valve), when it was actually the ECU itself. Examination of the wiring diagram shows that, if its not the sensors, the fault is almost certainly in one of the following places:


    The relays K94 and K95.
    The throttle control motor.
    The hydro-unit pump motor.
    The hydro-unit valves (all 10 of them).
    The wiring looms.....and
    ...finally, the ECU.


    The one connection I didn't check was to the DME on pins 35, 61 and 63, mainly because this is a digital-to-digital connection and, to be honest, I still don't know where the DME is located.


    For everything else, some basic electrical knowledge and a good multi-meter is all you need to progress from here(*). If I had to do all of this again, having first tested any specific component identified during the diagnostics, this is the order I'd now follow. In practice, it was a bit more higgledy-piggledy than this...(*edited to add that anyone suspecting sensors should now fast-forward to my posts about how to test all four sensors from the ECU connector plug...)


    Sensors: Look forward through this thread to find my posts on how to eliminate these quickly and cleanly from the diagnosis.


    Relays: I'd change these as a matter of course if they've been on the car for more than 3 years. This eliminates the relays from the puzzle and gives you the advantage of having two old ones that you can prise apart and use for subsequent tests.


    Before moving on, remove the ECU connector. Its much easier to do this if you unscrew the ECU from the body first, by removing the four 10mm self-tappers which hold it to the car. Also, it gives you more room to carefully invert the connector to get at the sockets for the wiring tests.


    Throttle Control Motor: Check wiring continuity from the ECU connector from pin 23 (+ve supply) all the way through the motor and back to pin 53 (earth). Then activate the motor directly by taking off its 2-pin connector and apply 12V (+ve to pin 1 and -ve to pin 2). It should wind in the throttle cable and stop, then release it when you take the power away. If the wires are OK and the motor works, tick this off the list of suspects.


    Pump motor: Short relay K94 (use the old one you've just opened) and listen for the pump firing up. You don't need the ignition on as this relay is "hot at all times" on pin 30. If the pump doesn't turn or sounds strange, or laboured (see TT above) you don't need to go any further.


    Hydro-valves: Connect one terminal of the multi-meter to the hole for pin 87 of relay K95 and test the wiring continuity from the ECU connector through each valve. Resistances should be around 9.0 ohms for the four inlets on pins 2, 54, 52 & 6; 4.7 ohms for the outlets on 33, 27, 25 and 34; 9.0 ohms for plunger 49 & pressure intake 26.


    Next, short relay K95 (same way as K94) then activate each valve in turn by earthing the 10 connectors, listening for a tiny click from the hydro unit to confirm that the valve is operating and, if you really want to be sure, measure the voltage drop as each valve is activated. If the resistances are OK and you can hear each valve operate with an appropriate voltage drop, its not the valves.


    If my car self-diagnosed another valve fault again today, I'd first test the valves as above. If all seemed well, I'd know then to suspect the ECU. But instead, in our ignorance, we (that is the garage, the local BMW $tealer and myself), all fell for the trap of following the diagnosed fault code and consequently the garage then spent hundreds of pounds and wasted a whole day fitting a new part which wasn't needed.


    The Wiring Looms: Work through the remaining Pin Assignments on page 3450.5b-a to -d in conjunction with the wiring diagrams on pages 3450.5-07 to -12. Check all the earths (M), confirm that every output (A) is connected to where its supposed to go and that incoming signals (E) are there when they should be, e.g. hand-brake signal (76) and brake lights on signal (48). This is simple stuff though it does take some time - however a lot of the connections (e.g. valve relays) can be ticked off straight away as they have already been proven by the preceding steps.


    By the end of 3 hours, I'd managed to confirm that the following pins had good wiring and/or a good incoming voltage when apropriate: 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34, 36, 37, 38, 43, 44, 48, 49, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 67 & 76. As noted above, the only connection not tested was to the DME.


    Having got to this stage and not being able to find anything wrong anywhere (despite the car still saying it was sick with a cross-over valve) I decided to heed the words of Mr Sherlock Homes:


    "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"


    And so it proved to be with my car, because the only thing remaining was the ECU. A unit which was externally dry and showed no signs of ageing or rust, was actually corroded inside and causing all the problems with its intermittent connectivity. Improbable, yes, but it was the truth!


    I really hope this provides some assistance for anyone still trying to fathom out this problem, which is frustrating to say the least. With the benefit of hindsight, this problem could have been fixed inside a week! But then again, Tony, I wouldn't have a spare pump!


    I'll be bringing down the wiring diagrams, spare relays and multi-meter to Zeals next Sunday if anyone wants to kick it around any more.


    SG

    Extra Gloss Protection from AutoGlym.


    I just used EGP as recommended (on top of Super Resin) and am amazed at the end result - a real new-car finish! Does anyone know: could I now use EGP again to build up layers of protection - or will subsequent applications simply dissolve what's already there?
    SG


    I can answer my own question because I just got a call back from a very nice lady called Lynn in Customer Services at AutoGlym. Some other useful information, too. Super Resin is a combined cleaner and resin polish which you use to get the surface clean and relatively shiny after shampooing and drying (I've started using my Stihl leaf blower for this - the neighbours think I'm potty !). EGP then seals and protects the surface, deepening the appearance of the glossy finish. For a car left outside in the UK, a single application should maintain its protective properties for "4 to 5 months". During this time it can be lightly cleaned with AG Bodywork Shampoo Conditioner, which is PH-neutral. If you wish, you can apply further coats of EGP. But, whilst this may further enhance the appearance, AG say it won't extend the overall protection period that they quoted.

    In case you haven't seen it on wuffer.net, there's a full workshop manual on-line here at


    http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/Index_Repair.htm


    I've also downloaded a copy to my laptop so I can take it out to the car without needing a broadband link - plus now I've always got a copy if it should suddenly disappear from the web. I used a program called Website Ripper Copier which cost me £20 from the tucows website. A bargain!
    The manuals on disk 1 occupy the best part of a gigabyte of disk space and my download took about six hours. I don't know precisely how long it took because I got bored waiting and went to the pub......

    Try BBA-Reman


    I've just had my faulty ECU "remanufactured" for £100 + shipping + VAT by this company - http://www.bba-reman.com


    The unit was reporting false Hydro-Unit valve problems and when the ECU was strippped this was found to be due to internal corrosion. The repair took 3 working days and is guaranteed for 2 years.


    One advantage of having your existing unit remanufactured is that you won't need to go to a main dealer to have it re-mapped to your car's VIN.

    THE FINAL ALL-CLEAR!!!


    To TT and everyone else who has made helpful suggestions regarding the ABS/ASC lights problem......


    I got the ECU back from BBA-Reman this morning, so the turnaround time was just 3 days from their receipt of the part. I fitted it straight away and the result was 100% successful. From the first turn of the key there were no lights, and a quick drive on a greasy piece of tarmac showed that both ABS and ASC are once again working as per design. To close the loop, I then called BBA-Reman to hear what they had found. Apparently the main circuit board had suffered some corrosion but this was repairable and they confirmed that the fix they have done is fully covered by the 2-year return-to-factory warranty. I was surprised to hear that it was corroded internally as the outside was clean and there is no evidence of moisture anywhere. It just goes to show, you can't make any assumptions with these units. There was a satisfying smell of silicon solvent coming from it as well, so I assume they've made it as moisture-resistant as possible during re-assembly.


    I've made a couple of wrong-turns trying to diagnose this fault, and my apologies to anyone who followed me down that "dodgy relay" hypothesis. Got there in the end, though, and if I can share any information that I've picked up along the way, drop me a line. TT, look forward to seeing you in Zeals for a debrief!


    Best regards to all.


    SG

    Endorsing PAYD Insurance


    The cheapest annual quote I had was from Norton at just under £400 but that was limited to 5,000 miles. I heard a radio advert for NU PAYD and went for it on my 1997 840Ci and also my trusty old E34 525iSE. The RAC came to fit both cars on the same day about a week later. My fixed monthly premiums are £11.25 for the 8 and £6.35 for the 5, with average mileage rates working out at 3p/mile and 1p/mile respectively. So, for the 8, that's giving me about 9,000 miles per annum for the same price as Norton, or, another way of looking at it: a premium of £285 for 5,000 miles. On the 5, I've halved my annual insurance cost at a stroke. The best bit is that I just drive as much as I want, and pay for it monthly as I go. Oh, not to forget the TrafficMaster GPS at just 89p per journey, plus the confidence of having a direct mobile link to the control centre if it ever breaks down. Also, a fair chance of locating the car quickly if were to be stolen, though this is not sold as a full tracker service. I think its superb value for money.

    Testing the ECU wiring...


    Zitat von shiggsy


    One good quote to bear in mind when do continuity testing or ohm tests is "the only positive result is a failure".


    Shiggsy, thats a very good point. When the garage told me that the WS/GN wire was "good" between pin 1 of 34511090910 (Hydro Unit, ABS) and pin 49 of 34521164133 (ECU, aka Bosch 0265109022), I was still sceptical. I wanted a fast resolution to the problem, but I also wanted to be absolutely sure that what was being diagnosed had some basis in fact.


    Here's my attempt to prove the wires and all of the solenoids in the Pump unit in one go.


    1) Make sure the ignition is OFF and remove relays K94 and K95 .
    2) Remove the ECU connector from the ECU and have a diagram of the connector handy.
    3) Bypass the K95 relay socket to short hole number 8 (connects to pin 30 of the relay) to hole number 2 (connects to pin 87 of the relay). This action supplies +ve current to pin 15 of the Hydro Unit, hence all 10 valve solenoids are now receiving a positive PD (no current though, as the ECU provides the earths)
    4) Stick the -ve probe of a multi-tester into a suitable earth in the ECU connector block (28, 29 or 55 should all be good earths) and, one by one, check the voltage received on the following ECU pins:
    2 - Left-front IN valve
    33 - Left-front OUT valve
    54 - Right-front IN valve
    27 - Right-front OUT valve
    52 - Left-rear IN valve
    25 - Left-rear OUT valve
    6 - Right-rear IN valve
    34 - Right-rear OUT valve
    49 - Plunger valve (aka cross-over valve)
    26 - Pressure intake valve
    5) Record the voltages for each of these 10 pins, which should be fractionally less than the battery voltage at the time of the test.
    6) Now remove the short across relay socket K95. (easy to forget !)
    7) Connect one probe of the multi-tester into hole 2 of the relay socket housing K95 (where pin 87 goes) and then test the resistance of each of the valve solenoids.
    8) Using the same pins at the ECU connector, measure and record the internal resistances. On both my Hydraulic Units I obtained the following readings:
    2 - Left-front IN valve: 9.0 Ohms
    33 - Left-front OUT valve: 4.7 Ohms
    54 - Right-front IN valve: 9.0 Ohms
    27 - Right-front OUT valve: 4.7 Ohms
    52 - Left-rear IN valve: 9.0 Ohms
    25 - Left-rear OUT valve: 4.7 Ohms
    6 - Right-rear IN valve: 9.0 Ohms
    34 - Right-rear OUT valve: 4.7 Ohms
    49 - Plunger valve: 9.0 Ohms
    26 - Pressure intake valve: 9.0 Ohms


    I'm now pretty confident that the wiring between the ECU and Hydraulic Unit and back again to the ECU is OK but as I shall only know when the ECU comes back from BBA-Reman that the problem has gone.


    SG


    PS Smiley eliminated!