Supercharger install

Ok, than the lmm's are good, I know that they can trick you, also that the dealer can't see all problems with it(had that problem already).

Are you sure that the connections after the lmm's are really tight?
The arrow is on the right direction?
(did you install a pressure-meter? otherwise you don't know if you have the right pressure, because it hears if you have it but it isn't, that can fool you also and could explain the bad performance, You relly do need it to see if all is ok with the system all times).
You can also check than if the intake doesn't leak because of the higher pressure.
It is possible, when you have more petrol than air that the grates at both side on the lmm's are the problem, I taked them off.

The 3 sensors at the righthand behind the motor on the pipe and the 2 on the end of the intake are still connected?

I also agreed that the other thing can be the installation of the bigger injectors, I don't think it's needed to do that till so 500-BHP also the fuelpumps could be to small to give enough pressure than.

When all is ok, I guest that there is a problem with the dme-chips.

The picture I put up was only meant as an example where to find a part number - it is in fact a M73 pressure regulator I was having problems with a while ago.

The number you gave up to 1/92 is in fact a lot dearer than the one I saw but at 142EUR minus approx 15% rebate plus our taxes still way below what you´ve been quoted.
Maybe it makes sense for future items to think about a relay ordering between Germany and Norway. Of course there will be taxes of sorts but sending items as a gift or similar should circumvent such rubbish. PM me for things that you need and I can take the appropriate steps. This will take a few days more relaying than through the BMW dealer system but may also save a pretty penny.

The successor to the 1353715685 pressure regulator is 13531743378 (Bosch) @ 70 EUR ex taxes each and for whatever it´s worth I do not have the slightest of clues what might make this different to the one in your car. I´d assume that one could go with one or the other.

Keeping my fingers crossed!
Cheers
Reinhard

The fuel pressure regulators will not go faulty just because you have fitted the SC. There is no reason for Hartge to change the fuel pressure when all the fuel delivery is controlled by the DME's.

Here is an exerpt from my Oct 2007 article on my SC install;

[FONT=&quot]THE FUEL SYSTEM. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
To produce 600 bhp, the fuel system will have to be capable of delivering the extra fuel required to burn with the additional air,(Oxygen), being supplied by the supercharger. There are a few ways of doing this. Firstly, you can increase fuel pressure to the injectors which will naturally increase the volume of fuel delivered. Secondly you can increase the duty cycle of the injectors so that the injector is operating to supply fuel for longer and thirdly, you can simply increase injector size.

All of these options are for a car using electronic fuel injection like the V12. Other options include additional injectors and secondary fuel injection systems but I will not go into these in any further detail.

Option 1, increasing fuel pressure is very effective and probably the most widespread method of increasing fuelling on an aftermarket Forced Induction conversion because all that is required is a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that senses boost pressure and automatically increases fuel pressure to suit. These are known as Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulators(RRFPR). After a little setting up, ie RATE of fuel pressure rise per lb of boost, this is the preferred method for low boost applications.

HOWEVER, the fuel pressure can only be increased so far, due to limitations within the system. We cannot obviously increase fuel pressure beyond the delivery pressure from the fuel pump, (or actually close to it due to delivery volume restrictions), or beyond what the injectors will operate at, most injectors will start to give problems above 60 psi pressure, and fail by jamming open at around 80 psi. It should also be noted that fuel delivery does not double with double fuel pressure, but by the square root of the ratio, so an injector flowing 25 lbs of fuel at 30 psi only flows 35 lbs of fuel at 60 psi.

The second option of increasing duty cycle is this. An electronic injector controls its fuel flow by altering the amount of time the injector valve, (nozzle), is open, known as Pulse Width in milliseconds, allowing fuel to flow. This time is stated as a proportion from permanently closed, 0%, to permanently open, 100%. EFI injectors have an upper duty cycle limit beyond which, they will either overheat and no longer pulse, or they may burn out completely, and for Bosch injectors used in the V12 this is around 85% duty cycle and for the Lucas injectors it is around 90%. This severely limits the fuel flow available from injector control by the ECU which increases fuelling by increasing injector pulse width. A stock injector runs about a maximum duty cycle of 80%.

Thirdly, you can increase the size of the injector. As the injectors are rated in cc/min or Lbs/Hr, you could select an injector set that on their own will supply the required amount of fuel at an appropriate pressure and comfortable duty cycle. This does however cause over-fuelling at all other times unless a method of reducing fuel flow is adopted. Due to the limitations of the first 2 options, I have selected to go for this.

To calculate the amount of fuel required per cylinder for 600 bhp, I have used the formula of (Maximum Horsepower x Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) / (No of Cylinders x Duty Cycle). in cc/min

So........(600 x 5.6[BSFC on a Supercharged engine])/12 x 0.80%)
= 350cc/min or 33.3 Lbs/Hr per injector.

The stock V12 injectors are rated at 14.7 Lbs/Hr so to flow 33.3 Lbs/Hr would require either 230 psi fuel pressure or a 225% duty cycle!

However fitting 33.33 Lb injectors will give the required maximum fuel flow at an 80% duty cycle and stock 3 Bar, (45 psi) fuel pressure.

To reduce fuelling at lower engine requirements, I will be using a combination of fuel pressure control, input signal manipulation and ECU reprogramming. The fuel pressure can be reduced to a minimum of around 20 psi before atomisation suffers and the ECU can be reprogrammed to reduce injector pulse width down to approximately 1.5 milliseconds.

The other major change to the fuelling system, is the MAF, (Mass Air Flow) sensor. Whilst I have no concern that a pair of 2 1/2" MAF's will flow sufficiently for 600 bhp, I was concerned that they could METER that amount of flow. As they measure air MASS, and therefore automatically compensate for boost pressure, I wanted to find some MAF's that would meter this flow of 300 bhp each.

To explain this, essentially, a MAF is a voltage supplier to the ECU ranging from 0 to 5 Volts. So at idle, the air it is measureing will cause it to supply the ECU with "say" 0.2V, but with the engine under full load, may supply 4.8V. This will allow a little leeway for production differences. However, this MAF was designed to flow for a CSi producing "only" 190 bhp per bank, so the MAF could easily reach its 5V maximum limit way before 300 bhp was reached where the 5V output would then plateau, therefore I had to find a MAF with a 0 to 5V range capable of metering 300 bhp's worth of air, so that all flows between 0 and 300 could be metered. I initially looked at the MAF's from the single MAF equipped E34 4.0l and E39 4.4l 540/740's, both capable of 300+ bhp, and I eventually found a 3" MAF which I hope will do the trick.

CURRENT PROGRESS.

I currently have some injectors fitted rated in excess of 30 Lbs/Hr, together with the 3" MAF's with silicone induction hoses made to accept the 3" MAF's, and the car is now running, awaiting the delivery of a specific, advanced RRFPR so that I can tweak the fuel pressure, still have the option of increasing fuel pressure in proportion to boost, then install the Wideband O2 sensors in the new exhaust system and begin to get the system dialled in by reprogramming of the ECU's.

(For the uninitiated, a Wideband O2 sensor fits into the exhaust just like a factory O2 sensor, (also known as an Oxygen or Lambda Sensor), but instead of sending information to the ECU for fuel system trimming and adjustment, it gives a digital readout to a hand held display showing fuel mixtures whilst driving to allow "on the move" adjustments or datalogging. A veritable portable rolling road!)

Apart from the replacement of those dangerously low slung fuel hoses prone to leaking under the floor of the car with the braided hose kit, and new fuel filters, that is pretty much it for the fuel system for now.

O yes, and the billet fuel rails. Ah yes, and the fuel cooler still in debate, Erm yes, and the braided fuel hoses under the bonnet[/FONT]

Pic shows mt 3" MAF in my induction system.

8Tech.

Hey Egil,

not to bother you, but I just have the desire to post this:

I full well know that - by now - you are irritated and aggrevated because things don't work out as they were planned.

I've been there many times and it's aggrevating every time. I - for one - do truly believe this thing can be worked out! and it's imho not your Hardge camshaft which is at fault.

If you know someone with another 8 (M70 or S70 engine) ask them to lend you their massflow meters and replace yours. Also, unplug the oxygen sensors, as by now they might be completely off from all the soot. Unplugging the O2 sensors will, actually not do too much harm as the DMEs will assume that they are off and that air/fuel ratio is ok.

No pain - no gain!

Zitat von Noggie;66587

Dick.
I will check my LMM's, but the new hoses are so tight that it's a two man job to get them on.
Arrows are in the right direction.
The intake air temp sensors on the back of both intakes are just changed.

The 3 water temp sensors on the aft right of the engine are connected, hopefully the connectors have not been swapped.
(would it make a difference??)

My money is on the DME chip, could have missed something in the software.
According to John the Hartge software was a lot more advanced than the stock one.

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Egil, please buy a pressure-meter to see if you have the extra boost into your intake, otherwise you don't know what is happening!
I really look first when something is wrong if there is pressure, when not, the airhoses are leaking and you get all of these nasty things.
When airpressure is ok, than you will know if it's the fuel or dme's.
It cost you so 50 Euro's and that is cheaper than to start changing all kinds of parts.

I'm not sure, but you only can swap two of the 3 sensors, but as I look at them, the look the same, so I don't think it would be a problem.
When one is damaged, the engine will think that it don't become on temp and will pump extra petrol to make sure of it(that's what I know).

Keep the faith, hear my engine run at the Poland meeting a few weeks ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6F-nhuXv_M
One's it will run as you want it....

Du löser dethär!!

Im really looking forward to se the car run...
I cross my fingers for you!

Lycka till
kempegrejt
akkurat och allt vad det heter

Zitat von fuzzifikation;66532

Maybe, it's other changes from Hardge (or some defect) that does that.

Let's try to wrap our head around this:

Sympton: Your car's running rich and the DMEs and EML works.
Possible faults:
1. Bad massflow sensor(s) (or badly connected)
2. Bad oxygen sensor(s) (or badly connected)
3. Fuel pressure too high.

And.. I have my money on number 3!

Don't give up!

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We're pretty confident that this is a DME programming issue. We did experience similar issues on one other SC kit install but that particular E31 was without O2 sensors. Therefore we're currently investigating whether the two issues are related.

It may take some time to sort it since I'm in the States and Egil is in Norway.

I will provide feedback here once we know more.

Rgds...

Hi,
if it is not an install/hardware issue and you got the proper values from LMM to DME (means you got the right one for that setup/software, same as John in DC's setup) you should focus on DME software.

I guess your DME is pointing to wrong maps in EPROM (make sure your install does not set any faults, what would mean you running in an "emergency map").

Easiest thing would be to try to programm a non plausible/uniq map for WOT (dimension is only 16x1) in the map for Euro version in your DME-EPROM and see if your car is running on the maps for Euro.

8 and 7 series V12's were always a little special with Variantcoding

The issue here is that if you running your current supercharger setup with the big injectors and the DME points to the standard maps (even the ones from Hartge) - your engine will be flodded with fuel.

If you could email your ZCS from the inside of your lid of the fuse box (it should be a bunch of numbers for GM, FA.. on a sticker, good picture showing the numbers will work to) or just read it out from EKM (later 8series it is easier from EWS module).

regards
firebird

good luck Noggie. Been watching this thread with interest since you started it

Hope you have tackelt this problem Noggie!

With this success, we can finally announce the availability of the supercharger kit for M70-based E31's (with stock camshafts) for both the North American and European (ECE) markets.

The only remaining step for Egil is to refine the Air/Fuel ratios to more closely match the Hartge camshafts.

Way to go Egil !!!

Rgds...

Well done Egil! Very glad to hear that you've got it up and running properly. I'm looking forward to the youtube vids.

Great job guy's!

Egil, ZF has a extra strong "wandlerkupplung" for 700 Euro's.;-)
It can take more tork and BHP, they told me 600 BHP isn't any problem than!(If you want the adress and phonenumber let me know).

Good to hear that you are running again.

The strange sound in my 840 is gone.

It was a bit of the sound isolation plate laying against the drive shaft.
It took quite long time to locate it, and expensive to.