Handling question

    This has nothing to do with improving hendling, upgrades or anything like that, but how does your e31 handle.


    I think mine has issues, I'm unable to pinpoint where to look, and I just wanted a "second opinion" where I want to know if your e31 is the same, or not.


    My car, -90 model m70 auto, 19" wheels, 245/275 tire combination. pressure 2,7/3.0 bar Front/rear. eibach springs/ bilstein shocks, done about 20.000km, and phoenix's fixed camber plates.
    Car just had MOT with no remarks on bushings og anything else. most bushings have been replaced in the last few years, TA bushings replaced with e34 M5 ones less than 5000km ago.
    Pitman arm bushing replaced twise, last time same time as the TA bushings, though I know my steering box does have some slack in it.


    So to the way my car handles.
    at speeds sub 100kph the car is "all over the place", it follows the groves in the road with a passion I believe this is called tremelling or something in English. basically just crusing along a country road in 60-70kph you have to be on your guard constantly because the car can at any moment veer to either side, and I'm constantly have to fight opposing tremelling with my steeringwheel.
    When breaking the car also tend to follow the contours of the road, so during hard breaking I have to catch whatever side the car decide to pull to and counter with the steeringwheel.


    When I get to about 110kph the car is much more stable, at 120 I can more or less relax, at 140+ it's a dream to drive and the car is rock stable.


    Anyone else have this issue with their 8? that low speed stability sucks, and at high speed it just a joy?


    Since all my bushings appear to be ok I'm starting to wonder if my wheel alignment is off, I'm also seriously starting to think about getting a new steering box, or overhaul the one I have.
    I've had my alignment checked a few times, last year adjustments was made to my front axle, and the year before my rear axle, but I may have to take the car inn for another check now.

    -Egil (thats my name)

    1990 850IA Hartge SC
    2012 M550d Touring

    If I misspelled a word it's because I'm Norwegian, so bear with me.

    Yes that all sounds familiar. I have to drive fast officer, its the car you see...
    :)
    Mine doesn't do it to the point where it worries me, I am relaxed and loose with it, but it will "tramline" like a good un.


    Tyre pressures... Doubt this will make any difference, I run 2.7/2.5, F/R in the Alps.


    Also had the pinch bolt on the pitman arm clamp loose. The arm was moving on the splines, only very slightly, virtually undetectable to the eye, but a few thou multiplied by the length of the arm becomes significant. It was noticeably better when retightened, still tramlined, but tighter in the steering.
    I actually replaced the OEM nut, which is a sort of half nut with a full ss nylock.


    Do you have powerflex thrust arm bushes? I am on my second set after similar mileage to you. EDIT: No you don't, just read your post properly.


    gix

    mcat911.
    I have Michelin Supersport rear (replaced less than 1000km ago) front are Michelin PS2, these are frem -07, did notice they had been worn a little too much on the inside, probably due to wrong toe-in last year, thought I'd have the replaced this year, or at the start of next years season. could very well be the difference in tires that amplifies the little slack here and there.


    e31Gixxxer.
    so you actually run lower rear pressure than front, interesting, never seen that before. (referring to door stickers on various BMW's I've owned) my e46 M3 has 2,4/2,7 bar on the same wheel/tire setup, and that runs perfect (MS Supersports F/R).


    I could have a look at the pitman arm, good tip, but I fear my steering box is what really needs attention, and a new one is almost 3000 euro.


    You mean item #10 on this right?
    Nut/bolt #11/12 and #8


    8er.org/forum/index.php?attachment/22221/


    I had items #3 (both sides), #9 and #14 replaced back in -08, and #15 again in 2011 along with the TA bushings.


    I've allways had to adjust my driving when getting into the 8, usually takes me 20-30km to get aquainted with the cars quirks and behaivior. though this year I just thought it was worse than before.
    Having had the car 7 years I have replaced a lot of parts on it over the years so you would think it would be in pretty good shape by now :)

    Yes #12 is the nut, looks like this



    Umm...I may review my pressures, not had any issues, but just checked the book from what you said and it says 2.9/2.9 for a CSI on 18".


    The 17" stars are listed 2.7/2.5 on the plate and in the book, which is what I run in them, I do up the rears if loaded though, can't believe I haven't spotted that before. So now when I drive the car will it feel odd? :hmmmm:


    I used to run 2,7/3,1 but dropped a little back in 2011, I tried to run 2,5/2,7, but this year I went to 2,7/ 3,0. I may try to drop both by 0,1 bar. genererally add 0,1 bar pr 10mm tire witdh increase, and also add some for lower profile tires(bigger wheels). so this says to run max 2,8 on 265/40, I run 275/35 on 3,0 bar, so added 0,2 bar for the wider tire and lower profile.


    Yes I see your sticker, odd, I usually run close to the high load values since I on previous cars have experienced that this appears to reduce the tramline.


    my M3 says to run 2,3-2,8 on 225/40 19 (front) and 2,4-3,3 on 255/35 19 (rear) I used to run 2,7/3,1 on that setup, but they wore quick, now I run 235 front at 2,4 and 275 rear at 2,7. and this appears to be good, though perhaps I good go 2,5/2,8.
    I'm buying a compressor for my garage, then it will be easier to play with the pressures, now I have to go to the petrol station every time.

    -Egil (thats my name)

    1990 850IA Hartge SC
    2012 M550d Touring

    If I misspelled a word it's because I'm Norwegian, so bear with me.

    Hi Egil,


    Firstly, it is interesting that there are so many variances in recommendations for tyre pressure as you can see from my sticker. Also interesting to note that they dropped the ZR rated tyres to R rated.


    I have never driven another 8 whether 850 or 840 so it is difficult to compare but I do experience many of the features you mention. The most significant being the dramatic improvement in stability as speed increases. I have always found the 850 heavy and sluggish at low speeds and a tendency to tramline but perhaps not as bad as your experience. I changed to the 8 from a 1991 e32 735. The e32 steering and stability was simply fantastic and I just assumed that the 8 would feel the same but in a better looking body but I have to say it has always been a disappointment by comparison and I have never found out why. Like you, I have never had bush issues at MOT nor have I ever had uneven tyre wear so maybe it is just a feature. I do not think it has actually ever changed because when I was talking to a BMW dealer in the mid 90's they suggested the 840 was probably better because the 850 had always felt heavy in the steering department. At the time the 8 series for me, was always about the V12 and I just didn't want an 840, but as time has gone by it would seem that the driving experience in the 840 is probably better. The large tyres you run will contribute to tramlining.


    Cheers
    Graham

    Hi Egil,


    I had noticeable tram-lining in my 840 until I changed the standard steel front wishbones for items with spherical bearings in the inner ends from Wokke last year. I have had Phoenix camber plates on for 3 years or so, and with the new arms the stability was much improved at low speeds on poor roads.


    Hope this is helpful.


    MB

    yes, I'm going to Wokkes in a few weeks, may have to place an order :)


    Also want to do the lower x-brace and strong strut modification, probably a winter project next year.

    -Egil (thats my name)

    1990 850IA Hartge SC
    2012 M550d Touring

    If I misspelled a word it's because I'm Norwegian, so bear with me.

    I have the same problem on my 840 Egil.
    I'm running 245 in front, and with the horrific roads here on the "west coast" the car is all over the place...
    If i understand correctly the wokke lower control arms should fix this problem (so i have heard)..
    It is definitely worth a try. Don't know the price, but i guess we could ask him;-)

    Zitat von TERMINATOR;111418

    I have the same problem on my 840 Egil.
    I'm running 245 in front, and with the horrific roads here on the "west coast" the car is all over the place...
    If i understand correctly the wokke lower control arms should fix this problem (so i have heard)..
    It is definitely worth a try. Don't know the price, but i guess we could ask him;-)


    Looks like it's one of the e31's burdens then and that my car is probably ok.
    I replaced those 5000km ago with e34 M5 bushings.


    I'm going to Wokke in two weeks time, and I've prepared a list of things I may want done to the car if the cars should spend the next winter in Germany :)

    -Egil (thats my name)

    1990 850IA Hartge SC
    2012 M550d Touring

    If I misspelled a word it's because I'm Norwegian, so bear with me.

    Egil
    Are those bushings just pressed in and are they spherical, any modification required? I may consider fitting them next time. They may have more longevity than the powerflex ones.

    Zitat

    I replaced those 5000km ago with e34 M5 bushings.

    They are pressed. they are the same as the e31 bushing, but it has more rubber in it so it flexes less, though flex more than the powerflex ones.
    I think the oem 840/850 bushing is no longer sold, and the CSi bushing is now for all e31's in the ETK. the M5 one is a step up from the CSi one



    I think the Wokke solution may be the best, using a spherical uniball bearing with a thin rubber surrounding , this has virtually no flex, should improve handling, last a long time, though will lower comfort and increase noise.

    If you have serious tramlining the first place to look is alignment - mainly the toe adjustment on the front wheels. Worn bushings and ball-joints make a difference as they affect the alignment dynamically, but where you have no confidence in the car's direction then alignment is the first thing to get done.

    +1 on Timm's reply.


    The tyres will make tramlining more prominant and incorrect alignment will make the steering dive into corners or lose self centering.


    Your 19" wheels will only make this a whole degree worse with less sidewall flex.

    Just a quick thought on tyre pressures...with my 2.5 bar in the rears my tyre wear is uniform across the tread, no scuffed edges etc. If anything the middle has slightly more wear than the edges. This indicates that 2.9 would rip the middles out?


    Egil: you said you check your pressures at the garage, do you use your own gauge to check the pressures, as I have found forecourt ones to be very inaccurate?


    I am glad to I have read this thread, I have many of the features mentioned also on my car, and sometimes driving my 8 can be quite demanding. All the other cars I have had have never had this problem, and my Yaris is probably easier to drive than the 8 (but not as much fun!).

    Since I've had Gerry have a proper look at the steering / alignment, the car has been excellent to drive - very sure footed and it will go wherever its pointed. Theres a bit of tramlining on poor quality roads but other than that its really nice and solid and I don;t feel I'm fighting the car.


    Before Gerry had a look, I was finding it impossible to find anyone local who could get the alignment right - the wheel was always off centre, which I find really annoying, also I felt I was constantly putting in steering adjustment even when going in a straight line.


    I'm running 20" alpinas with low low profiles, so I think its fair to say that you need to have someone good look at the alignment / front end components.


    For info, I've had/got:
    Bilstein /eibach
    camber plates
    powerflex TA bushes
    new steering tie-rods
    new steering idler arm bushes
    new rear trailing arm bushes (Gerry's ones)

    A little update since I started this.


    I have had an incident with sticky brakes on my car, so the other day I took them apart and serviced them, the pistons where OK, but the pads were sticking in the calipers, and the gliding pins were not moving as well as they should.
    Since this my cars handling actually improved, the unstable braking is gone, so the car no longer pulls when braking, and the tramlining has also improved quite a bit.


    While doing my brakes I did notice that my front tires, now 6 years old was not worn even, this was because of a front wheel alignment issue I had last year.
    The shop that did my upper/lower oil sump seals did not do an alignment after the front subframe was off the car, and I drove 1500km to Sweden before this was fixed.
    It took it's toll on the tires, but the alignment was done and should be OK, but I guess the damage was done, the tires are old and ready to be replaced anyway.


    When doing my brakes I noticed both rear shocks looked like this.
    These have done less than 20.000km, or one has done 20k the other just 10k as it was replaced 2 years ago, so the conclusion is that Bilsteins are crap shocks that does not last, to bad there are no other good ones out there.
    Both had evidence of leak as you can see, and the bump stop has been on the shock a lot meaning they are bottoming out.
    No doubt they are affecting my cars handling.


    8er.org/forum/index.php?attachment/22515/




    I'm off to Wokke before I'm going to Prague, and then Vienna, and Wokke has a new set of Bilstein shocks and new front tires for me, so hopefully the car should handle well in Vienna.


    Question is, if the rear are like this, what about the front shocks???

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