B12

    Gents - thank you for all the info- Jud you sir are a mine of information Jjust increadable - Arnie thank you for your contribution number 10 sounds like an opportunity missed.

    Cheers chaps

    1991 850ci,
    2001 540
    2002 4.6 Range Rover Vogue

    Zitat von Steve5;60477

    .... number 10 sounds like an opportunity missed.

    Cheers chaps


    The car is probably still in the UK somewhere (?). It took them almost 2 years to sell it. Sometimes, I do regret not having bought it because even though it was based on a regular 850i, its was still extremely rare. The person who bought No 13 uses (used) his "every day" and once told me that it's the best car he's ever had under £100k (The cars were offered for £45k-£50k). I was also looking for a car to use quite often but thought it would be a shame to use such a car for daily commuting, picking up stone-chips etc and devaluing it. Also, at the time, I was just getting interested in the e31 as an ownership prospect and didn't fully understand how insignificant the differences between the CSi and this B12/5.7 really were. I mean that if someone wanted to, probably most things exept perhaps for the AHK could easily be retrofitted to bring it closer to a CSI-based 5.7. Another small point is that with one or two previous imports, I'd always had problems with MOT stations wanting to have the speedometer diplayed in miles. This car had apparently passed the vehicle inspection for registration in the UK, but the speedo was only in km/h. This might have brought some problems down the line.


    I also think that practically, the CSi has just the same performance. Both have the same stainless exhaust system with sports, metal-matrix cats and both, in the UK, as hampered by cast-iron exhaust manifolds. The minute difference in engine CC is just a paper exercise. The interior in the CSi is in many ways nicer due to the two-colour scheme in comparison to the (that) Alpina's flat-grey.. and when you look at the extras such as AHK and uprated wheel-hubs, floating brake disks, stiffer sway-bar, additional oil coolers, more modern electrics, alarm, etc which that car didn't have, then the Alpina is harder to justify. What was nice about it is the 18" Alpina alloys and of-course, that bonnet!

    Am I the only E31 owner who dislikes the Alpina vented bonnet? I don't mind the slats over the sides of the engine, but the NACA duct in the middle is terribly ugly

    what do the vents do? did they help with air circulation .
    the naca duct in particuler.
    water penetration must be an issue
    I can recall a video from years ago. showing a 8 left ticking over for ages in a very hot climate, cencors testing every thing .
    the car was then sent somewhere very cold and the same tests done,
    If the csi's needed vents BMW M division would have fitted them.
    I still want one for the ks8.

    Zitat von bradc;60497

    Am I the only E31 owner who dislikes the Alpina vented bonnet? I don't mind the slats over the sides of the engine, but the NACA duct in the middle is terribly ugly


    Yes Mate


    I Think you are:laugh:

    Those who risk nothing,achieve nothing,become nothing.

    Zitat von bradc;60497

    Am I the only E31 owner who dislikes the Alpina vented bonnet? I don't mind the slats over the sides of the engine, but the NACA duct in the middle is terribly ugly


    I like the louvers behind the headlights - in fact they look great. But just like you I think the Naca duct is plain ugly. I wouldn't want that on my car...


    It was found that the heat build with the Alpina [extra Horses] maybe that after a session of very spirited driving the temp gauge went through the roof:harhar:


    Hence the additional cooling ;)


    I personally love the B12 bonnet [just for the record]:mrgreen-angel:

    Those who risk nothing,achieve nothing,become nothing.

    Zitat von Rob750;60506

    I contacted Thomas and yes he does supply bonnets with the alpina grilles but he does not add the NAca duct


    :roll:


    But he will if you ask him nicely:harhar:

    Those who risk nothing,achieve nothing,become nothing.

    Overal I think the 8 looks the business anyway but looking at what Alpina have done to the body makes it hard to describe the beauty - just like a beautiful woman fantastic :harhar:

    Of course what they do to the mechanics is a boy's own dream I would love to own one some day :top:

    1991 850ci,
    2001 540
    2002 4.6 Range Rover Vogue

    It is futile to argue about taste but would you describe a woman with a chin like a snowplow as beautiful? :lol:


    Nothing wrong with the good ole 70s but the Alpina front spoilers even on my ´99 B10 look as outdated as ever.


    I do like the hood gills, although... how embarassing if only a V8 is found underneath ;)


    It all boils down to your personal liking and the size of your purse... exactly like with some beautiful women :laugh:


    Cheers
    Reinhard

    As you know, the NACA duct forces air down between the cylinder heads. if you've looked at the 850 with a warm engine, you can see the wavy heat of hot air coming up through the left and right sides of the bonnet- from the hot exhausts, I guess.


    The slats, I think, will help cool the exhaust when driving, by forcing air down, over the manifolds, to exit under the car. This is perhaps more useful with the snaky tubular manifolds fitted to the Euro Alpinas.


    The NACA duct is perhaps more of a styling feature than something absolutely necessary, but I'm sure it does help cool the middle of the engine and balance the cooling with the left and right of the engine, which receives extra air from the slats. However, I'm sure that the NACA duct will also lead to all kinds of rubish finding its way into the engine area.


    The original Alpina bonnet is a carbon-fibre sheet bonded ontop of the normal metal frame that is used for the steel bonnets. There were also reports that in hot climates with hot engines, the paintwork on the carbon fibre was liable to bubble. Maybe because Alpina did not fit the under-bonnet blanket? Certainly with carbon-fibre parts, the resin that forms part of the matrix can soften with heat and the whole assembly is also prone to absorb water/moisture over time, which eventually weakens it.


    I looked at the Engel bonnets and they appeared to be alterations of the standard steel bonnet. Perhaps this is a safe option in terms of fit and durability, but I think that I would like a CF bonnet, if one could be found.

    Indeed - all B12 5.7 CF bonnets that I have seen had the paint peel in the gills. It is a fairly difficult spot for the paintshop and tends to aggregate the paint, ie the layer is too thick and cracks/peels over time.


    The NACA duct´s sole purpose allegedly is the cooling of the intake runners and the injection valves/fuel piping for the rear cylinders where the heat is the greatest.


    MAYBE they encountered petrol evaporation/gas bubbles after prolonged periods of heat build up and the car left standing. This can lead to unwanted and unfavorable hot start problems.


    A German tinkerer (fuzzifikation on this board) has described an experiment wrapping the headers down to the mid section flanges of the exhaust in heat absorbing/insulating material which in turn reduced the under bonnet heat massively! This means that most of the heat buildup under the bonnet stems from the badly (not) insulated headers. For that reason the M60/M62 driver with double walled headers notices less heat under the hood and can start working much earlier than the V12 driver that even after hrs has to barbecue his upper extremities.


    Thomas Engl´s bonnet is indeed a modified "normal" bonnet. For what it´s worth the weight difference of the CF bonnet to the sheet metal one is maybe 10-15kgs. Not worth the admiration and certainly not the amount of money that was quoted last. IIRC it was above 7K EUR plus taxes ex Alpina when last asked. Of course they´re no longer in stock and you´d have to provide proof of ownership and likely damage to the OEM Alpina hood in order to coax them into making one. The other non OEM ones - I have yet to hear a review that is positive throughout.


    Thomas is an excellent craftsman and has a very good paintshop at hand - many a German and Swiss car has undergone surgery at his workshop and everyone left with a smile in his face.

    Cheers
    Reinhard

    Zitat von reinhard;60523

    .....A German tinkerer (fuzzifikation on this board) has described an experiment wrapping the headers down to the mid section flanges of the exhaust in heat absorbing/insulating material which in turn reduced the under bonnet heat massively! This means that most of the heat buildup under the bonnet stems from the badly (not) insulated headers. .......



    Yes, I think that one can buy woven glass-fibre material for this purpose. I think that the exhaust tubing is already twin-walled, but the manifold is cast-iron and that will emit a lot of heat- as it does. The Alpinas with the tubular manifolds may be even worse, as I think all that is single-walled tubing (hence requirement for cooling slats). It might be a good idea to insulate the manifolds, as otherwise over a period of time, the heat will age the wiring and other plastic materials. However, I don't know whether insulating the manifolds might impair engine cooling.



    Zitat von reinhard;60523

    .....Thomas Engl´s bonnet is indeed a modified "normal" bonnet. For what it´s worth the weight difference of the CF bonnet to the sheet metal one is maybe 10-15kgs. Not worth the admiration and certainly not the amount of money that was quoted last. IIRC it was above 7K EUR plus taxes ex Alpina when last asked. Of course they´re no longer in stock and you´d have to provide proof of ownership and likely damage to the OEM Alpina hood in order to coax them into making one. The other non OEM ones - I have yet to hear a review that is positive throughout........


    I'd once heard that from Alpina they were Euro 11,000. But I agree that of the various 3rd party CF attempts, none were completely right. Maybe Engl is the best bet, then? Does his price include the bonnet?

    Zitat von Jud;60419

    All official RHD Alpina B12 5.0/5.7's produced are still in service as of January 2009.



    This is interesting. When we visited Buchloe in August 07 (?), I remember Kris saying that the Sultan ordered 4 B12's (implying 5.7's and RHD) but that the Sultan had 2 of them crushed.

    Sytner told me that #10 and #13 never made it to Brunei and were sold by the Sultan's car procurer in Singapore, along with 50-odd other exotica.

    I got the impression that #10 left Maxstead Page for Ireland, but those guys are very discrete about their customers.

    Paul

    Zitat von paullindum;61563

    .....I got the impression that #10 left Maxstead Page for Ireland, but those guys are very discrete about their customers.

    Paul



    Possibly. Maxted Page did tell me at one point that an Irish gentleman was interested but then didn't turn up for the arranged inspection appointment. But, maybe he did eventually...


    From your posts at www.theAlpinaRegister.com:


    Zitat von paullindum;61563

    PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Alpina B12 (BMW E31) Reply with quote
    The factory told me there were 8 RHD B12 5.7, 4 went to the Sultan of Brunei and 2 of these were crushed ! 1 was sold in the UK according to Sytner, and leaves 3 others in Japan or where ever else.


    Although Buchloe HQ and Synter are a respected lot, there are some of us in the Alpina/8er enthusiast community that have learned that they do get their facts confused and just plain wrong, just like the rest of us mere mortals (grin).


    Let's start with the total number of RHD Alpina B12's. Once again, here is the official tally from my previous post: 6 cars - not 8.


    • Alpina B12 5.0 - 2 RHD

      • D110064 - Sultan of Brunei
      • D110065 - Sultan of Brunei




    • Alpina B12 5.7 - 4 RHD

      • D200008 (based on a M70 850i 6spd)
      • D200010 (based on a M70 850i 6spd - UK/Ireland)
      • D200013 (based on a M70 850i 6spd - owned by the respected Paul Edwick - do you know this guy? - grin)
      • D200047 (based on an 850CSi, UK delivered and written up in a couple of UK-based car magazines)




    There are NO recorded new RHD B12's delivered to Japan.


    If there are 8 B12 5.0/5.7's, then someone, please share what these other two cars are and their identity. From the Inventory Project point of view, they don't exist.


    Now about this rumour of crushed B12's. This is probably rumour and speculation since these cars haven't been seen in a long time, much like most of the Sultan's collection.


    For the sake of argument, lets say Buchloe (via Kris) did tell you two of the B12's were crushed. The Sultan ordered 4 RHD B12's, 2 B12 5.0's, and 2 B12 5.7's. The 2 RHD 5.7's are accounted for and are in active service.


    That leaves the two RHD B12 5.0's. We have reports on file that these 2 cars are still in existence and that the Sultan did in fact have a few non-B12 8's crushed (along with other cars from his extensive collection), but zero reports that the B12 5.0's were crushed, other than this first-learned speculation from Buchloe you first disclosed today in this post.


    At this time, these two cars are shown as active until proven otherwise.

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