Proposed structural changes in the forum - was: Is this site dying a slow death?

For what it's worth, I also log in everyday to check out what's going on. One point made is that at least there seems to be less problems with the cars and maybe, as a result, less posts....less problems is most welcome.

Gerry - I always read your posts, they are great - I should really say so in a reply mind you! I'm always in awe of the work you do (and any of the other guys online here) and then think, man, I'd love to get hands on with my own 8 but bar accessible bits (i.e. interior and bulbs!!!!), I'm no mechanic nor have the facilities, so unfortunately from that point of view, don't post tips or such like.

I think it's a brill site and all information is practical, useful, interesting and most worthwhile. Other forums can be a bit clogged up with rubbish but hey, there ya go.

I intend to keep checking in every day but if I've anything useful to post, I shall do just that.

Dear 8ers,

I am Fabrice the president of the french 8er BMW Club. Recently we put up our club and it's just starting up. We also don't have much posts but honestly we'd rather have less with quality than a lot with insults and no respect.
All you said is relevent and justified but we have moved from an old site clube31.com that was hacked all the time to another one 8er.org very stabled and all that made it possible because of Martin and Christoph from switzerland and all the time they spent for you to be a part of a community and remained linked into one another. Let's give them more time to make it better in terms of visual. For the french section i have spent some time with them telling them what the french people wanted. And soon it will be working the way we want.
Each country should put up a club then see for each one what is expected. Martin is asking you what you want so tell him now and he will do his best to make it clearer.
Joining all the forums together will be very difficult because french only speak french generally and they are getting scared when they are in a flow of english posts so unfortunatly it won't be a good idea to merge the forums. However it is possible to post in any forum as long as you ask for it in the top menu the tab called Groups : then choose which group you want to be a part of and you'll have a response telling you if you can be a part of it to be able to post.
To be a french member you need to pay 25€ annual. Which is nothing really and it pays the regular fees of the club nothing else. So like i said the idea is quality not quantity. What you guys think about it?

And to answer the original question : NO THIS SITE IS NOT DYING BUT REALLY ALIVE... AND WELL!

May the 8 be with you
Fabrice

Hi steve,

you sold your green 8?

Fabrice

I suggest you post here how you would see this site and maybe Martin and Christoph can change it for you.

Fabrice

Well this thread certainly livened things up a bit and makes a lot of good and valid points.

I am a regular reader and never stop being amazed at so many of the great achievements amongst members. The pictures and write ups are truly professional and sometimes make me feel very inadequate.

There are many times in recent years when I thought of selling my car but the enthusiasm and assistance from this site has kept my interest going.

I too, like the idea of "other 8's spotted out and about" as I often see a few on my travels, funny thing is I never see another 8 when I'm in mine but plenty when in my daily runner

Thanks to all posters, you really are appreciated

Hey steve,

seems like you love the 8 serie.... You had 3 different. And you prefer the white one i guess?

Fabrice

fabrice: I don't think anyone wants to join all forums, so don't worry - the English will not bother the French ;-). But right now the forum is split illogically. At this moment the forum is split in countries, some of which are duplicate:

• Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz (Registrierte Benutzer, registered User, utilisateurs enregistrés)
• Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz (Clubmitglieder)
• Francophones (utilisateurs enregistrés, registered User, Registrierte Benutzer)
• Australia, New Zealand, North America, United Kingdom (registered User, Registrierte Benutzer, utilisateurs enregistrés)
• The 8series all around the world (Der 8er in der ganzen Welt / Le 8 dans le monde entier)
  
  
  • Benelux (Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands)
  • Italy
  • Japan
  • Scandinavia (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden)
  • Spain & Mexico (Las Americas)
  • United Kingdom
  • USA & Canada

It's especially the last subforum (The 8series all around the world) that is completely redundant. Over the last 7 years only "United Kingdom" gathered over 40 messages! And most of these messages shouldn't have been posted over there but in "Main Discussion" of "Australia, New Zealand, North America, United Kingdom". It would make more sense to split the board by language and only offer major languages (used on this board). Basically that means German, French and English. If there's demand for another language that can represent enough members, it may be added, but from looking at the forum in its current state I think these three languages will do. Sorry for the languages that are not represented (my native language is also not in the list), but there's just no point in have a subforum which will generate only a few messages each year at most. If you ask a question in those you can almost be certain you'll never get a reply. Furthermore, those languages usually already have their own communities (Spanish, Dutch,...). So that would reduce the (regional) forum structure to:

• German
• French
• English

What's going on inside the German and French section, I leave to their respective users. But I'd love to see the English section publicly browseable - no registration required. That way new owners or E31 enthousiasts get an impression of what's going on here before registering and the forum can be crawled by web search engines. There may be some concern against the latter. Jud mentioned there's some information here he didn't wanted publicaly available on the Internet on at least one occasion. This may need some closer investigation.

In case of meetings there's need of regional categories. A French speaking Canadian may be more interested in North American meetings than French meetings. So another subforum "Meetings" may be appropriate.

• German
• French
• English
• Meetings
  
  • Germany, Swiss, Austria
  • France
  • Benelux
  • et cetera...

You may wonder this is almost the same as "The 8series all around the world", but it should be clear this subforum is only for meetings and related information! It's not meant for technical questions as is now the case.

This is very much similar to what Noggie presented, but he had another subforum for Alpina. I don't think that is necessary. The "Alpina B12" section in "Australia, New Zealand, North America, United Kingdom" has produced 15 messages in 6 years and 10 out of that are not even regular user contributions but knowledgebase articles. That's not exactly a vivid part of the board.

Apart from perhaps a few hidden forums that leaves only:

• Eingangshalle / Entrance hall / Hall d'entrée (Der Einstieg ins Forum / The entrance in the forum / L'entrée dans au forum)
• Information (For registered User read only / Nur Leserechte)

The first one is another fine example of redundant information. In it we find yet another meetings folder (how many places are there on this board to announce meetings?). The subforum "BMW 8 Series FAQ" should contain the contents of the former e31faq.com website, but after the merge with 8er.org the original website disappeared but the information was never transferred to this place as more or less promised. Right now the contents of e31faq.com are mirrored at wuffer's place, but even if it ever finds a new home here it shouldn't be under "Entrance hall". That leaves only "Information 8er.org - About 8er.org". Most of the information in here is static or updates rarely. It may be better to move it away from the forum into the main portal. It just takes up display space. Alternatively move it down to the last subforum.

The other subforum "Information" contains valuable information - albeit it could do with an update in some sections. If the contents of e31faq.com ever return, this would be the place to put it.

• Information
• German
• French
• English
• Meetings
  
  • Germany, Swiss, Austria
  • France
  • Benelux
  • et cetera...

As said I won't touch the contents of the German and French subforums (that's up to their respective users), but with regards to the English section I would - once again - follow Noggie. As long as the forum doesn't draw a massive amount of traffic, excessive subforums make it appear even emptier than it is and more difficult to find the information you need. I like the KISS principle - keep it simple and stupid. Right now we have the following:

• Main Discussion (Everything 8 series related)
• Off Topic (Everything else)
• Technical issues (Tips & tricks, maintenance & repair)
  
  • Prepurchase (Going to buy an E31 ? Check this out !)
  • Maintenance & Repair (Tricks usefull to repair and maintain your BMW 840/850)
  • Modifications (Post your comments about the best mods for your car)
  • Tips & Tricks (Miscs & More Useful Technical Infos)
  • Part Numbers (BMW E31 Part Numbers (Only for Members))
  • Manuals
• Repair Manual (Official BMW maintenance & repair data for the E31)
• Showroom (Post your E31 experience - show us your
• Classifieds (Sell, buy and trade E31 products)
• BMW Dealerships & Independant Shops (Post your experience)
• Alpina B12 (All about the Alpina B12 E31)

Some of this can be moved to the "Information" subforum, but most of it can be merged. I would keep the off topic subforum. It's not really the place where you'll find me, but I hate it when people start posting off topic nonsense in on topic forums like happens all the time on bimmerforums.com.

Timm also mentions the addition of a "How To" subforum. I'm not sure I like the recently added "How To" subforum at bimmerforums.com. I don't like the fact the topics are locked so others can't give feedback. This leads to duplicate topics in the regular section. Anyway, with a "How To" subforum included, the English section could look like this:

• Main Discussion
• Technical
  
  
  • How To

  
  

• Classifieds
• Off topic

Or in total:

• Information
• German
• French
• English
  
  • Main Discussion
  • Technical
    
    
    • How To

    
    

  • Classifieds
  • Off topic

  
  

• Meetings
  
  • Germany, Swiss, Austria
  • France
  • Benelux
  • et cetera...

This is of course more or less my personal vision, derrived from ideas from Noggie, ukzero, Timm,... It doesn't have to be the definitive structure, but I believe it makes the place a lot more user friendly.

Oh, and another thing is that when you visit 8er.org for the first time the forum software is in German... Although most people will be familiar with forum registrations, I can imagine this may be an extra threshold to some.

Wow, Revtor, you've put a lot of effort in to this post, with many good suggestions. I agree that the present set-up can be confusing and and I don't think it is organised in the best way, with too many redundant sub-sections.

The structure of the international ie non-German language bits is the legacy of ye olde ClubE31.com.
At the time (towards Aug. 2008) Martin & Christoph from Switzerland were happy to be able to migrate two completely incompatible systems into one without losing data. This would have been impossible without the dedication of Jud Spencer who kept alive ClubE31.com for a long time and supported the merger into 8er.org wholeheartedly to form a truly international community. You will notice that some stuff dating back to 2003/2004 resurfaces from time to time which precedes the foundations of 8er.org by 5 yrs.

The German language section has been set up from scratch in 2007 and, although after this time we are now nearing the decision to consolidate a few sparsely used areas in order to clean up the appearance this is an entirely different and much more difficult job for the former ClubE31.com site.

Very important: in order to reorganize you need what is being done here: obtain ideas and input for a general direction. Make a plan that is agreeable to the majority of users.
More important: you need to find some(one) willing to dedicate the necessary time for the reorganization.

8er.org is run by 8er owners and is not managed by an IT company as a result of the private funding of the site. The members of the Swiss club 8er.ch (the predecessor to 8er.org) are the ones that keep the site up and running and for those fearing the end is nigh´ - it isn´t. Not for a long time to come.
Martin, Christoph or me taking care of the technical side or the registrations devote a few hrs a day to 8er.org but please understand that we also need to earn a living in a fulltime job or running a business.

The pros and cons of an open forum have been touched already. In general it leads into a tradeoff. Better visibility equals more new blood but also situations that we´d rather not want to see and that have been led into field above. This forum is not only one where personal feuds just don´t seem to exist but also a meeting point of E31 experts from all over the world happy to help. This is the way we´d like to keep it as there are no plans to impose moderation that has become necessary in all other forums.

One might ask: why is that so?
From my point of view it is the direct result of the shutters not fully open and the party inside not deafeningly loud.
We have clearly laid out prereqs for the registration: we want to know whether he/she joining does exist. This requires verifiable address data.
How do (I) we do the verification?
Of course by publically available internet sources (e.g. http://www.192.com for the UK, phone books or similar elsewhere). In the end we are not asking for information not already visible to the world. Nevertheless this information will of course not be made available to anyone.
All those that decide to come up with fantasy creds will immediately be placed in the locker - my time is too valuable to chase down viagra selling spambots. Those that register with a stolen identity will be admitted - but they can´t read this prior to having registered
Once those locked away want to login they are presented with a (hopefully) clearly worded explanation and a clickable contact link.
This is where they may meet me again - in person

My feeling is that the subdued noise level and the initially "locked door" are the key elements for the quality of 8er.org - only enthusiasts and 8 series lovers come here and although traffic most of the time is a lot lower than elsewhere this doesn´t mean that a smaller number of people come to see the offerings. I personally am happy that we have yet to see the "Me too", "Me 3", "Full ack" or "B4NZ41" postings and most of the time people respect the nature of a topic.

The organization of 8er.ch aka which is the foundation of 8er.org is quite simple.
There are public areas where anyone subscribing to the German language section can read/write and there is the closed section for supporting members - those that keep 8er.org alive. Information regarding the need for support can be found here. Online translation services (they are a lot better than they used to be) ie here

The original structure of ClubE31.com was thought out too - it does make sense to have eg. UK and US (English) sections as the problems here and there by virtue of entirely different cars (LHD/RHD) do differ much. On the other hand it is not difficult to spec the car in the original posting.

To sum up here:
It is a good idea to reorganize the structure or better still, generate structure - something we would likely never come around to without the input AND moreso the help of others.

We are aware of and not overly happy with the bloated appearance but in the end 8er.org caters for multiple languages which makes a difference with a multiplier. All users are free to fade out what they do not wish to see or unsubscribe from other language groups through the UserCP, so in the end the user can tailor the forum to his/her needs.

Keep the ideas flowing...

Cheers
Reinhard

I agree with revtor, but I have one comment on the meetings section you propose.
Why split it up into countries?
Why not just have Europe and US?
I'm in Norway, and I want to know what is going on all over Europe.

What I have missed greatly on this board is an event calendar.
A calendar wher ALL meetings and events are listed and links to detailed information.
(but for some reason we have a birthday calendar?)

I want one place where I can go and find a cronological list on what is happening all over the world, that way I can check this against my work/personnal calender.
That way I can I.e see that I cant make it to the German meeting in May, but there's one in France in July that suits me, and one in Holland in September, but not the one in UK in August.
(Imaginary times for examples, not actual meetings)

When I look at it I also agree about the redundant Alpina forum I suggested.

The biggest problem with all the sub forums is that you hardly know where to post then, and end up posting in "main discussion" anyway.

I also have to agree that I like this forum a lot, there is no personnal attacks, everyone is friendly, and its not flooded by pointless threads either.

I like Gerrys "how to" threads, and I allways read them, usually they are so good that I really don't have any comments but I'm very impressed by them.
To me they are more of a "well, if I ever decide to do that I know where to look" thread.
But if it makes Gerry happy I can post a "great post" comment in the future to show him that I have actually read it

Me too I'm a quiet reader that enters the forum at least once a day. Don't write so much first of all because of my difficulties with the spelling and also because I don't like to write if my words aren't so interesting, or at least not at the level of the majority of the posts on the forum.

But I understand what Gerry says about to know that somebody is interested in the work you took to put some interesting stuff in the forum, to share with other owners. So I will try to write a little bit more...

I hope that the future of the site will be wealthy and strong for many years. The willingness of the webmasters to understand our thoughts about how to improve the forums make me think in that manner.

And I find that one one of the best forums about the 8 series in the net, so keep the spirit and go on!

N.B. Steve, great thread, mate

I agree with all thats been posted today re the site. It seemed to me that in the past, when Fabrice handled the site, that their was more 'banter' and enthusiasm. I too found the whole registering procedure a bit complicated but if it keeps numpties out, then all the better.
I think in the UK we're a bit laissez faire when it comes ot arranging some sort of meet. There is a vibrant breakfast club see www.midlandsbreakfastclub.co.uk nigh on every month, but havent yet seen anyone else there with an 8. I guess the real crux of the matter is that there are not too many o E31s about. Its not as though we've signed up to the latest Japanese owners club site is it?
I think Gerrys posts are superb but I just wish he could move further North!

Steve I love the site and to be fair if it had not been here I would have probably sold the car as the technical tips have saved me a packet and whilst I am confident in most areas of car repair with out the little tips and tricks life would have been so much harder. I visit the site daily sun or rain and whilst the range of threads has dried up a bit I would not want it to dis-appear. When is the next uk meet, I might be able to make one, one day Although I did make the first wrench fest at Peters

Really hope it will be alive for MANY years, as a relative new E31 owner I have alredy learned a lot and must say that the help provided here is excellent.

I was a bit worried when I got this car on hove to maintain as well as get spareparts and finding experts if needed , But having a forum like this then there is just no worries at all

The expertice here is absolutely top and do not think any workshops around can come even close ( at least not in Norway ) this I belive for many of us is a very good reason for keeping the car's.

Many thanks to all of you
And yes I do log in several times every day and read it all.
Hoping to contribute in the future when other need tip or help

Regards
Terje

Steve.... the problem is you have just not posted as much as you used too or you are not fiddling as much as you used too!Either that or you are secretly on another forum and have kept your "land of the rising sun purchase" a secret since you sold the B10 ????

Many of the points raised are valid, particularly the one about all the various posting/discussions areas... confusing yes and some are just not used.

I think we all adore the 8 but some of us have other "classic cars", other interests and most of us have a family .... I know that my wife thinks I am having an affair on my computer . I guess for many it just becomes a time thing. I don't know about the rest of you guys but the older I get the faster the time seems to go and the less I get done and I am still the right side of 50 (just)!

The recession probably puts more strain on our work life, same workload, or more, but less people to do it, I know that in my sphere people have less time for the niceties!

I don't think we will die. I have seen more and more eights around the Bracknell / Reading area, and have even stopped to chat with some, although the guy I pulled up alongside, honked at, waved at and drove past on the M40 the other day, on my photo trip, didn't bat an eyelid at the sight of another 8....... he may have been the wrong side of 70 I guess...... don't shoot me if you are a forum member please.

Zitat von robmarrs;77260

I don't know about the rest of you guys but the older I get the faster the time seems to go and the less I get done and I am still the right side of 50 (just)!...

That's so true !

Zitat von stevep840;77265

Yeah right,me in a rice burner It's true I'm not 'fiddling' as much,I found much too expensive a pastime,but still manage to post a fair bit as I don't know a great deal about the V12s but will learn the hard way;-).

In an answer to Lloyds question "when is the next UK meet" AFAIK there is nothing planed & we have to ask our selfs WHY, I've tried hard in the past to get an 8 meet together but always the same problems arise, guess we all do Gaydon though

I think the logistics of arranging a 'meet', with Club E31 members , even in the UK , as far apart as Edinburgh, and yourself in Cornwall, make it all a bit difficult. Personally i dont mind travelling say a 100 miles for a quick chinwag, few photos etc etc so whoever is game, chuck your hat in!