The Quest for 600 bhp - Part 1 - "Introduction"

Really looking forward to seeing the planning and progress of this project
In fact, I can barely wait

8Tech as one of the V12 boy's I watch with interest

I cant wait. I know that lazy V12 has loads more to give. I look forward to details of your quest as it unfolds

I am looking very closely at this. I am helping with a local Superchanger Project (With my very limited capacity) for a 850Ci. This will be a stage 1 without any intercooling good for about 500HP. If it is successful, I will employ the method to my 6L with air to water aftercooling and Aquamist.

Keep posting and thanks in advance and enjoy some pictures (You may have seen these already).

Gerry. This would be the only thing that would make me change to a manual as the auto box is only good for 400HP

What about the 4 valve/cly route. I know the casting of a mirror image head would be a hell of a task but is it doable as a group?

Faisal, Very nice pictures... Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling......

Thanks all

Alex

Zitat von schnitz850

Gerry. This would be the only thing that would make me change to a manual as the auto box is only good for 400HP

What about the 4 valve/cly route. I know the casting of a mirror image head would be a hell of a task but is it doable as a group?

Faisal, Very nice pictures... Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling......

Thanks all

Alex

Alles anzeigen

As the founder member of the Frustraighted 400hp Supercharger/auto box club i ask____ Gerry what do you know/can you find out? if there is a better autobox out there that will handle more power as i believe with intercooling & a bigger crank pulley to run 7lbs instead of 6lbs 550 bhp from the V8 is possible, but only a pipe dream at the moment

Gerry, whatever you do, don't stop!!

Hi 8Tech,
I'm very interested in this one too, I've been backwards and forwards through the spec' on this engine and while a lot of the original design features were probably considered pretty clever at the time it doesn't take long to realise they've also covered all bases and left no scope for conventional tuning.
And just as a note for the benefit of the not too technicaly minded reading this thread, if you want to keep this engine atmo' (non forced induction) and don't have a huge amount of money to spend (and I mean completely out of proportion in regard to what gains you'll get for said money) or a spare Maclaren F1 engine laying around, your buggered.
So, as the owner of an early `low comp` 850i you've got my full attention.

Is this project still going to keep the OEM engine management and is there any sort of budget in mind?

Stuart.

STAY FOCUSED !!!!! 8 TECH !!!!!

I am so excited I can hardly stand it,

What kind of price point are we looking at ?

I have an automatic with the speed limiter removed, is it true that you can only get 400 bhp as schnitz said ?

Any possible bolt ons for smaller gains you can suggest, as you seem to be very knowledgable about this car...

Zitat von DMPrentice

I have an automatic with the speed limiter removed, is it true that you can only get 400 bhp as schnitz said ?

You can get more HP from the engine. It is the 4HP24 transmission which may not be able to withstand the torque. But that is my guess. I have the Light Flywheel and Hi-Torque Clutch from Phoenix Motorsports.

Zitat von schnitz850

What about the 4 valve/cly route. I know the casting of a mirror image head would be a hell of a task but is it doable as a group?

Alex, The 4 valve is doable but a very expensive venture. If you want I can get more information for you. I had a cost estimate done through the company who did my 6L, Powerplant Racing and the final cost was about $80,000.00 if I only get mine done. It is not only the heads but all the associated work as well. Way rich for my blood, especially when the FI is here.

The 4 valve heads will produce 610 hp / 520 lbs/ft torque with smooth idle will meet tailpipe emissions / 7800 rpm redline. This engine will be a 6 liter bottom end build, with custom 4 valve per cylinder, heads. The design is based on the E46 M3 engine cylinder head - (S54 designation).

Having spent many hours considering the same subject as far back as 1993 and basically ever since, this is the discussion I have been waiting for!

No one kit will work for a stock 5.0L and modified 6.0L. Some want bolt on / minimal invasive surgery and others have high pain thresholds. Hence, a phased approach (phase 1, phase 2, etc.). Here are the series of approaches I have considered with much input from many others in the business over the years who are far more clever than I:

MOD KIT S1- is for the guy who wants to maintain as much of the original equipment as possible but improve performance (probably the largest quantity of owners as this would be least expensive and fairly quick to accomplish). I suppose it would have to be a twin unit (similar to Faisal's very interesting and what appears to be very expensive photos showing externally mounted blowers with voluminous plumbing (love it). Blowers would be similar to a Vortech or other SC. Will require a 'piggyback enrichment' method for additional fuel as remapping the original chips in the two ignition / fuel to be 'plug and play'. This would be the least expensive and would post a modest gain. What percentage of owners would go this route? What about free flow exhaust?

MOD KIT S2- is for the guy who wants more but realizes that certain other parts need to be part of the whole. Motors are air pumps so elemental are better intake capacity and freer flowing exhaust systems (should really also include headers). Cooler air is denser air so we need to get the underhood heated air out (John P.'s CF hood?). On comparable SC mods with V8s (both 2 valve and 4 valve) larger throttle body is a must (times 2 if we stick with the OE). Sure we can extrude hone intakes but probably not worth the price since we have forced breathing. Based on boost and breathing the fuel curves must be modified. What percentage of owners would go this route?

MOD kit S3- Now we also get into intake manifold extrude hone porting, cylinder head port work and possibly intake / exhaust valve work such as Alpina B12 5.7 (wonder if their trick stuff is still available?) and even more cam to get more air /fuel into the chambers. This is the area that really needs huge amounts of work and study. The 'good ole boys' in the States use intakes, head work, cam and headers to make a 1950's original design Chevy V-8 make 505hp in the Z06 with pushrods for heaven sake. For $14,800.00 you can buy a 505hp crate LS7 and drop it in the 8 series that gets 15 mpg city or better and is bulletproof (I have to admit that it was a thought, please forgive me).

Suggest we work on the head port / combustion chamber design to see what can be done? An engineer from 'Trick Flow' suggested more of a D port for more power in this head. Maybe Korman or Power Plant has done homework on this already. Gather info from Roadfly, everywhere on this subject as it is extremely important.

The M70 series heads are terrible as cast. The ports are so bad. The angles for the air/fuel entrance and exit are way off. This motor was designed for smoothness, low end torque (way long intake runners, medium compression and cam timing) and compactness. I have huge amounts of data and drawings from some flow bench work done 10 years ago (the last time I got serious about this subject). The heads (and motors for that matter) are abundant which would allow a program for exchange or to have heads reshaped with modified manifolds. Here again, new proms for best fuel enrichment would need to be burned. Also the combustion shape and size as well as the valve sizes tend to be adjusted with the size of the motor. The 6.0L would need larger passages / more fuel / valves / etc. to reach it's full potential (volumetric efficiency again). Getting the mapping correct would be challenging.

This package would be the most power without totally tearing down the motor and changing block based major components. Also we are still trying to use somewhat OE (modified) parts. This is the kit most of the more serious performance guys would choose, I believe.

MOD KIT S4 - Now we are in the type of system we saw in the photos where the system is extensive and complex. I am curious if the twin SC with intercooling produces more HP / TQ than the twin turbo with intercooling using the latest variable pitch units as in the new 997 turbo?

It would be logical to have a better intake manifold for this purpose instead of continuing to use the OE long runner type. What if you were to go with a Haltech or Electromotive engine management system with a new intake manifold which uses a single large throttle body that comes out just above the timing chain? These are readily available in the aftermarket and reasonable in price. They are available as wireless if need be. I prefer cable actuated throttle response and give away or sell all that double ignition system and double electronic control modules.

Back in the late '80s, I had personal experience with a Dinan turbo M6 and OE engine management then changed to Electromotive (using the OE crank sensor). The motor made more power and got better mileage. Took off the distributor and blocked the entry hole into the cambox / head.

Incidentally, all of these kits above will eventually melt the auto trans. The old Alpina B7 turbo regularly melted auto trans clutch packs and locking torque convertors if any more power was supplied. Possibly a good trans cooler with the best fluid cleaned regularly might hold up to the task. Again, this unit was really designed for smoothness with quite a bit of programmed slippage for comfort but not as much performance. The XF 6 speed auto is supposed to capable of dealing with the added torque. This is one of the areas to be studied.

Eventually all of these approach decisions must be sorted out before much can happen other than the 'one-off' system.

Since 8Tech began this superb thread, how about a coordinated team effort to cover the various components and modules with explanation of such via posts to the group? Please comment on any or all of the thoughts mentioned.

Michael B.

What about the V10 550hp M5/6 motor

http://cgi.ebay.de/BMW-M5-E60-…geNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Bang for your buck.... I know of one that was done in the States but not over here.... Yet

g-power.de wanted 100,000 euros for the E31 V10 conversion, as they said on the phone to me once!

That, my friend, is serious bang for the buck! That would be worth doing. It would be a rare one-off.

I also was considering as a special using the new series Magnasson supercharger (twin screw mounts between the V type with front air intake) mounted on a water to air intercooler which is integral with the new and improved intake. You can have a look at these on the Magnasson supercharger website. I have spoken to a company in the States that would fashion the unit. That design on the LS7 is making some 700 horsepower.

It would likely require a 'power bulge' in the hood (as in, is that a vegtable in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?). It would seem possible to get a CF hood 'skin' such as Alpina did with the 5.7 that would allow modification of an existing hood to whatever configuration (power bulge and vents for heat to dispurse).

If a design like that could be engineered to fit all of the external piping and sophistication would be eased. The existing motor management system could remain in place. I have done a bit of mocking up with hand drawings. If serious, would need to import CAD and check.

Do you guys see merit in pursuing that design? The Magnasson guys are willing to help undertake the project. Here again, its back to the approach and to what level. This approach could be scalable, as far as
blower size, boost level and porting. The walls of the casting could be adequate to fit a standard head and also to change the angle of charge entry more directly into the head which by itself makes more power.

Headers and free flow exhaust would make this even more serious.

Two other questions I forgot to pose in my last post are:
1) At what boost level do the standard head gaskets give up?

2) Has anyone had problems with the simplex timing chain or sprockets?
Most of the M motors are duplex as are the 4 valve V12 motors.

Have any of you had discussions with motor builders about any concerns relative to the timing chains and how long they will last? I have heard of any but most cars have mild tuning (even the CSI).

Back in the early '90s in discussion with Steve Dinan, he mentioned that they were using turbo approach to make the boost easier on the motor and the entire drivetrain because it's power ramp is smoother than the immediate boost a twin screw SC provides. I suppose we are back to melting transmissions again. However, Dinan did auto twin turbos and warranted the drivetrian. Curious what the mods were.

Michael B.

Zitat von schnitz850

What about the V10 550hp M5/6 motor

http://cgi.ebay.de/BMW-M5-E60-…geNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Bang for your buck.... I know of one that was done in the States but not over here.... Yet

Yes it has been done in the USA. But the better power option with an engine swap is still put an LSx engine mated with a GM Tranny and Turbos. That will produce over 700HP and will be untouchable in a old 840 body. I had something like that in mind for the 840 CSL project.

Zitat von Cavallino

Back in the early '90s in discussion with Steve Dinan, he mentioned that they were using turbo approach to make the boost easier on the motor and the entire drivetrain because it's power ramp is smoother than the immediate boost a twin screw SC provides. I suppose we are back to melting transmissions again. However, Dinan did auto twin turbos and warranted the drivetrian. Curious what the mods were.

Michael B.

Steve Dinan upgraded the automatic transmission internals or atleast that is what was told to the 2 Stage 3 Twin-Turbo owners I personally know. The Stage 3 TT is producing 625 Hp on pump gasoline and the Stage 2 TT without the Tranny upgrade is limited to 525 HP.

But I still believe Supercharging is better for the 6 speed and TT for the Automatic. The Turbo will make more power and the power delivery is when the car is in motion lessening the impact on the Tranny. A TT in my case will be less than useful in the real life. I have a 6 speed with 3.15 rear and the Phoenix Motorsport High Torque Clutch and Light Flywheel mated with a short shifter. Thus my 1st and seconds gears are very short and violent (60 mph at the top of 2nd gear). The turbos will either not have ample time to spool between shifts (Driving less aggrassively) or the turbos will hit when I am close to the limiter and if I am not careful (Shift early) I can lose the engine. But if I shift early then I don't use the full boost.

I'll take the SC. And the TS Supercharger is possible and with low boost, do without the intercooling as they are more efficient.